Koran burning

[catsittingstill]

Oh good grief.

By now you've probably heard about the plan to burn the Koran on 9/11.  *headdesk*

Because what we really need, apparently, is even the moderate Muslims thinking that we're total dicks.  If they don't already after the Park 51 / Burlington Coat Factory / "hallowed ground" (pardon me while I drag my gaze back from the ceiling; I will sprain my eyes if I leave them this way) thing.

I guess on the bright side is the fact that this is apparently, if I'm hearing NPR correctly, a Fred Phelps style group--a tiny congregation looking for attention by doing outrageous things.   (NPR didn't put it quite that way, but it's a church of about 50 people.)

It's not the "this might provoke violence" part that gets me.  In fact, I think that's entirely the wrong tack to take.  Crazy people will do what crazy people will do--you can't saw bits off your life that might "provoke" them.  No, it's the fact that we'd like to be on the same side as moderates (real moderates) everywhere.  And this is the way NOT to do that.

It's a free country.  They can do it if they want.  But it's a dickish thing to do; let me so be recorded saying it.

Comments

[keris]

According to the BBC they've lost around half of their congregation over this stunt, I don't know whether that was before or after the count of fifty.

I agree, the "it will put our troops in danger / will risk people attacking us" stance (which the POTUS seems to have taken from what I heard) is the wrong one. So is the posturing from some of the Christian leaders "Don't blame us, it's those fanatics" -- a large part of the west don't accept that from the Muslim moderates, it just looks like passing the blame.

The real point is "we don't want them to insult people we'd like to call friends when we get a chance". The fanatics of every stripe will find reasons to hate, but most of us would rather love than hate.

(Your idea about posting about religious tolerance on 9/11 has been seen on LJ, incidentally, and has some support there...)

[admnaismith.livejournal.com]

I wonder how the Koran-burners would react to this idea?

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=157201057625370

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Their leader's on record as saying he wouldn't like it but it's their right and he wouldn't go trying to prevent them either. Which is about the only sensible thing he's said yet.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, there are a number of other people on record as saying it's a dickish thing to do too, many of them capable of getting public audiences with which to say so. As well s a number of other religious organizations (including churches with substantially greater memberships) declaring their intention to use the Koran in their services that day as a show of support for the Muslim population.

The Koran-burners are still behaving like dicks. But at least they're garnering a heckuva lot more vocal opposition than support.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to hear this, and glad you brought it up.

[msminlr.livejournal.com]

"a number of other religious organizations (including churches with substantially greater memberships) declaring their intention to use the Koran in their services that day"

YES!!!

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

I hadn't heard. You got a link? They gonna try this in New York? If so, I have people who need to know...

Burning somebody else's religious text is a karmic act of huge proportion... but one which can be explained in non-esoteric terms. Imagine, if you will, wandering into the bad part of Harlem and yelling the N-word at the top of your lungs. Got that image of carnage in your head? Now, imagine that instead of the N-word, you had a word that offended not only their heritage but their religion *as well*. Now imagine what kind of reaction you'd get.

"Dickish" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Not that I expect anybody planning such a thing to understand that.

But, no.... in this case, doing such a thing has implications far greater than one wee fringe church, and I think it needs to be stopped. I think the phrase "inciting a riot" is legitimate here...

One has the inalienable right to worship one's own gods as one sees fit. Or to disbelieve them all, as you do. One does *not* have the right to go out of one's way to offend someone else's god or their followers. (A philosopher would say, to do that acknowledges the presence of said god... and by Kantian extension? risks the wrath of same. A rather stupid act, if you ask me.)

It's a free country, but freedom isn't free. If we do not use our freedom responsibly, we risk losing it.

Besides. The best revenge is living well. If we want to flip the finger at those who would steal our freedom? Simply *live free*.

These are my ideas, and you can't have them. :) :)

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

One has the inalienable right to worship one's own gods as one sees fit. Or to disbelieve them all, as you do. One does *not* have the right to go out of one's way to offend someone else's god or their followers.

Saying you don't have the right to offend someone is risky. There are people who are offended (for religious reasons, even) by women who ride bicycles. Does that mean I don't have the right to ride a bicycle? Does that mean I technically *have* the right, sort of, but I *shouldn't* ride a bicycle? How much of my freedom gets nibbled off to mollify other people's religions?

No, I'm not comfortable with that.

In my opinion, the Koran burning thing is dickish, not just because it offends Muslims, but because it's intended to drive home the fact that Muslims can't do anything back, because they're in the minority here. Its bullying. Add into that the fact that it's offensive to *moderate* Muslims, who haven't done anything to us and who wanted to be friends. I'm all for spitting in the face of dangerous fanatics who will never like me anyway. But when someone comes and tries to make nice, spitting in *their* face is just dickish.

But the Koran burners have the right to be dickish and offensive. I think of it like a rattlesnake's rattle--a useful warning of the presence of venomous vermin. I'd rather not have them silenced; that doesn't reduce the hazard, just makes the hazard harder to spot.

But in the meantime we should speak up and call it dickish so people realize most Americans are Not Like That.

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

OK, I propose a bright line here.

You can get up and yell about it all you want. Don't be physically burning the book. Make it a pollution issue. (It's a violation in my neighborhood to have a fire like that alreddie; you have to be burning clean charcoal, gas, or have a clean-burning fireplace; simply making a bonfire outdoors ist verboten because it creates too many particulates and noxious fumes.)

I see your point about letting them yell; I agree that suppressing them is dangerous. I do think that for many reasons, not all of which I can prove to you, actually burning the book is *more* dangerous, at least absent counterprotesters that stop them.

[joecoustic.livejournal.com]

What pocketnaomi said above. It's really nice to see that others are starting to see some forms of extremism for what they are.

Even the military and government are against vocally against it - though for different reasons. But it does make clear that this is not without repercussions or condemnations.

[peteralway.livejournal.com]

I just wonder whether this guy actually wants to provoke a holy war, as some sort of revelations-inspired armageddon thing where he can be the mechanism of some sort of prophecy comming to pass, or if this is just what passes for self-promotion in narrow-minded bigotted circles--he just wants to be recognised by his dickish peers as major dickhead to be reckoned with.

[occams_pyramid]

Just another Troll. Please do not feed the Trolls.

[judifilksign.livejournal.com]

I hope the group is roundly ignored when they burn the book, and so the idjits do not get the attention they do not deserve for being idjits.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

Maybe we should make 9/11 Be Nice To A Muslim day. Or Stand Up For Religious Tolerance Day.

Hmm. You gave me an idea :-)

[callibr8]

Er, no, not roundly ignored... since there's a bonfire ban in place in the town where this congregation is, the fire department could show up in full array... and perhaps be a bit "liberal" in just where they apply the suppressant?

It's a stupid, petty act, being perpetrated by a small-minded bigot. Let it be labelled as such, and then dropped (by the media).

I am definitely in solidarity with those who denounce it as wrong by any of several criteria.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

:-)

Fire is dangerous. It is important to keep fires under control. It is a public safety issue.

[smoooom.livejournal.com]

I like it. I'll have to think of something to day that makes sense!

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

? Are you thinking of the "Stand Up For Religious Tolerance Day" post? I would be very glad to have you join...

[smoooom.livejournal.com]

That's what I'm thinking of. It's a darn sight more productive than yelling about what some one is doing. We need more tolerance in this world of ours.

[mtgat]

I think the rest of us should pray for / think about / perform ritual requesting rain.

But I like the religious tolerance day idea, too. :)